How to Understand—and Resist Evil—with Mark Gober

Mark Gober is the award-winning author of An End to Upside Down Thinking and six follow-up books. In his writings and talks, he examines consciousness, the nature of reality, and the hidden forces influencing society. Mark is also the host of Where Is My Mind? and a board member of the Institute of Noetic Sciences. He blends his experience in finance with a profound exploration of metaphysics and spirituality, challenging mainstream perspectives on human potential and interconnectedness.

You can watch the full interview on YouTube.

MA: Our main subject is evil, so let’s dive right in. Mark, as an outside-the-box thinker, what are your thoughts on the notion that evil forces may control and even structure our society?

MG: I’m very open to that idea. Regarding society’s foundation, I have a lot of questions, especially about humanity’s true origins and history. But as for evil’s influence on what we do know, I do believe it’s real.

When we talk about evil here, I think of it as an energy that opposes a natural state of consciousness rooted in love and interconnectedness. My overarching hypothesis is that a benevolent force underlies reality, and what we call "evil" obstructs that force.

Dr. David Hawkins, a spiritual teacher, used the analogy of the sun always shining. We can think of the sun as this benevolent consciousness, while clouds that block the rays represent evil. These clouds arise in us as traumas or negative emotions, and on a larger scale, they create a complete obstruction, which could be considered the purest form of evil.

Today, perhaps these "clouds" manifest as energetic forces that influence our world, sometimes directly affecting people through choices—where someone actively opposes love to seek personal gain—and sometimes indirectly, through our own negative emotions or traumas that subtly influence our behavior.

MA: That’s a lot to unpack, but let’s start with something intriguing you mentioned. From your answer, it sounds like you believe we don’t fully understand the origins of our society. Is that accurate?

MG: That’s how I feel. We see this uncertainty even in current news cycles, with completely different depictions of the same event, and one version might eventually become the predominant narrative in history books. In this age of technology, where citizen journalists can document events, imagine how unclear things must have been much longer ago. We don't really know if what we're told is true or who was writing that history—what was manipulated versus what wasn't. There are a lot of questions about humanity’s true history.

MA: That’s a fascinating subject, and it deserves a podcast on its own. But moving forward, I wanted to bring up something else you mentioned. It seems like there’s a duality at play here—if there's good, then there’s also evil. Would you say that's accurate?

MG: It’s something I’m grappling with. Your earlier question was about the existence of evil, and now you’re asking why it would be there, which is very intriguing. The most common hypothesis I’ve come across—especially from those with direct experiences of other dimensions, or who've studied spiritual and religious traditions globally—is that there’s a force that causes suffering and pain but is ultimately evolutionary, stimulating growth. It pushes us to overcome things within ourselves, like deception, while also testing our morals and virtues. So having this contrast, with unconditional love at the base of reality and a lack of it as contrast, allows for growth and experience. If everything were just unconditional love, would there be any distinct experience at all? Can you tell that something exists without its opposite? Maybe, fundamentally, it takes duality for us to see anything beyond unity.

MA: Some say that, from our limited perspective, what looks like evil might actually serve a greater good from another angle, leading to the idea that there’s no objective good or evil. Do you think there’s an objective good and evil?

MG: Now we're getting into deep waters about the nature of truth—whether there's objective truth or layers to it. On one level, I’d agree that there might be no evil, just oneness, where everything within that oneness is a part of it. But on another level, there are things we can't ignore and must label as evil. Horrific acts, like those done to children—those are cases where ignoring or rationalizing them as "necessary" would be irresponsible, even if, at some other level, there might be a benefit we can't yet see. It’s like walking through a maze: we can’t see what’s far ahead, but from a helicopter's view, we’d understand the full path.

MA: You touched on the idea that suffering might be illusory on some level, yet we still experience it deeply. How do we reconcile this paradox—seeing suffering as both real and perhaps illusory?

MG: Dr. David Hawkins told a story that illustrates this point well. When I began my spiritual journey, I tried rationalizing suffering as part of learning, thinking it could all be fine because people grow through it. But I realized that could lead to passivity—just ignoring evil in the world. Hawkins, a top psychiatrist who left society for spiritual practice and later returned to share his insights, often quoted Ramana Maharshi, who said, "The world we see doesn’t exist."

That implies that suffering might not be "real" in an ultimate sense; it’s all maya, an illusion. But Hawkins also said that most people aren’t at that level of realization. To them, suffering is deeply real. He argued that it would be a spiritual error to dismiss that pain because "nothing really exists." So, while maybe there’s no ultimate evil, ignoring it in this world is also irresponsible. That’s the paradox: even if evil might be illusory on a higher level, we still have a responsibility to address it here.

MA: I couldn’t agree more, and it reminds me of a book by Eckhart Tolle where he says suffering doesn’t exist, and we don’t exist. But if you’re suffering, it is your reality. This also relates to what you mentioned in your book about Flatland, where everything is in two dimensions, like the analogy of the maze and the helicopter. Could you explain that allegory?

MG: Sure. In Flatland, people live in a two-dimensional world, like a piece of paper. Imagine a three-dimensional sphere intersecting this plane; the first point of contact appears as a dot. People in Flatland can’t perceive a 3D sphere, so they see just that dot and think they fully understand it.

As the sphere moves further, it creates a circle—a cross-section of the sphere. People in Flatland analyze this 2D shape, missing the whole sphere. So, similarly, from our 2D-like perspective, we may call things evil, thinking we fully understand them, but we might be missing a bigger, three-dimensional reality.

MA: Where do you think evil actually comes from? Could it originate within our minds, or might there be external entities or forces, like the idea of a devil, influencing us?

MG: Well, the answer is ultimately a deeply metaphysical one. If we go with the hypothesis I've explored in my books, the nature of reality is a unified field of consciousness. Some might call that God, or whatever term we choose, but it’s a unified field of benevolent intelligence made of unconditional love. Everything we experience, including the contrasts of our reality, are just modulations of that unified field of consciousness, which means anything we call evil is within it.

That’s one metaphysical view. There might be others people have surmised, though I’m not sure how we’d test them, but that there could be this unified field of consciousness that exists and then, somehow, outside of that, there’s a dark force that can interrupt. Let’s go with the idea that there’s a oneness that we’re a part of, and the evil is embedded within it. Then it’s part of creating contrast for us to make choices.

MA: So, given that perspective, would you say that evil, in some sense, serves as a force that tests our choices?

MG: I think the idea of an angel on one shoulder and the devil on the other is a helpful depiction—we all have choices, in actions and thoughts, about what we want to do. We have physical bodies and could harm other beings if we wanted to, just by physics. But we also have the choice not to. So there’s something like being tested, almost as if we’re in a video game where the nature of reality is obscured to us, yet, at some level, we know about it. It’s our choice not to have the answers to the test, so to speak, and to see how we do. And these dark forces, demonic or otherwise, are there to act as the bad guys in the game that we have to transcend.

MA: When you look around at the world today, seeing the immense amount of suffering, do you think there are times when there is more evil in the world than others? And are we living in one of those times?

MG: I’m really not sure. With modern technology, we’re exposed to so much more than we might have seen in the past. So, maybe it seems like there's more evil now, or maybe it's always been there but is only now coming to the surface more visibly. In the past, evil may have been more hidden; now, it’s like it’s being exposed. I’m unsure if there’s truly more evil than historically, but there’s certainly more awareness of it on a grand scale. And with COVID, for the first time in human history that I’m aware of, governments worldwide acted in unison to restrict people's behavior based on scientific opinion. Technology is enabling new things we haven’t seen before.

MA: It’s interesting when you say that because governments often justify their actions by claiming they’re doing good. It’s like when the U.S. enters wars, there’s always a notion of liberating another country or responding to an attack. Some of the world's most devastating atrocities start this way—under the belief that they’re doing good, which ultimately leads to more suffering.

MG: Yes, that’s a theme in my fifth book, An End to the Upside Down Reset. Part of the subtitle addresses people who are misled into supporting harmful causes. Often, great evil is carried out under the guise of benevolence. As the saying goes, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." Sometimes, this is done innocently—like someone recommending a medication they believe will help, though it ends up harming because they didn’t research it. But then there are others who act under a false guise of compassion, fully aware their actions will lead to control or harm but justify it as "for the greater good." So, there’s a spectrum of intentions, from the innocent to the deceptive. If we look from the perspective of evil, the easiest way to get widespread approval for harmful actions is to say it’s "to help," rather than openly stating harmful intentions. It’s like there’s an intelligent force that knows exactly how to manipulate people for its own ends.

MA: I want to go back to the idea of an intelligent force, but first, let’s discuss something I’ve noticed in popular culture. Platforms like Netflix, Prime, and Hulu seem filled with dark, nightmarish themes. Just scrolling through the titles, it’s clear that modern depictions have shifted—everything feels much darker now compared to when we were younger. And it’s not just movies or shows; music seems to reflect this shift, too. What are your thoughts on this change in tone?

MG: Yes, there’s definitely an increase in blatantly satanic imagery in pop culture, often presented as artistic expression. You can see it in performances and various forms of art. Defenders of this imagery might say it’s just expression and isn’t meant to be serious. But I do think there's a rise in this kind of symbolism, and it makes me wonder about its impact on the mind, especially considering how vulnerable the human psyche might be in ways we don’t fully understand. There was a U.S. government project, MK-Ultra, which has been declassified and discusses ways to manipulate the human mind, even creating dissociation through trauma to induce split personalities with different skills and knowledge, often with no awareness of each other. This makes me wonder about how much of pop culture is intentionally manipulated by those who understand the human psyche.

MA: In exploring how psychological manipulation might influence physical health, do you think there are methods or understandings today that could create subtle, lasting impacts on people’s minds and bodies?

MG: Yes, I’m also intrigued by something called German New Medicine, developed by Dr. Hammer. He found correlations between brain lesions and emotional traumas, with these lesions linked to specific organs. In theory, doctors could determine the kind of conflict a person experienced based on certain health issues. If this science holds, someone who understood it could theoretically induce physical ailments by creating conflict shocks—whether through media or other means. Think about movies or shows that trigger subtle traumas; people may not even recognize it as trauma, yet it could eventually manifest as a physical issue. From the viewpoint of an “evil genius,” if someone truly understood the psyche and human biology, they might induce various traumas, both overtly and subtly, to affect the general public.

MA: Maybe all this pain has a purpose, a sort of “no pain, no gain,” pushing us toward growth?

MG: I lean that way too. And also, if you were already at a more elevated state, you might have been able to circumvent the evil or not fall for the deception. But because you did, then there was suffering inflicted upon you, which then forced you to look at something because of the suffering—you had no choice but to try to consider the truth or to consider something new.

The analogy I often give is just my own experience. I was a competitive tennis player growing up. I played in Division I tennis in college, and my training was really hard—physically and mentally painful. But if I didn’t go through that, I would not be as good a tennis player, especially compared to other players who were training really hard too. So I can see directly the relationship between suffering and my own success, development, growth, and evolution. It was through that suffering and all the training that I learned nuances. I learned how not to make tactical mistakes in tennis matches. So I wonder if there’s some parallel to be drawn with evil more broadly.

MA: Nietzsche said, "What doesn't kill me makes me stronger," and that seems to fit with what you’re saying. But maybe there’s a limit; too much suffering can break a person. Trauma can strengthen, but if too extreme, is there no way back?

MG: I wonder about that, because I’ve heard stories of people enduring unimaginable suffering. One example that stands out is Serena Faith Masterson, who wrote I Am Serena. From infancy, she was subjected to extreme mind control and torture, enduring so much trauma that she developed over 300 distinct personalities.

Through what she describes as miraculous circumstances, she met a healer she eventually lived with for years. She was able to reintegrate her personalities. She believes her soul’s purpose included enduring and healing from this suffering to serve as a model for others. Stories like Serena’s are powerful—they’ve transformed me, and I’ve discussed them with many people. Reading her story left a significant impact on countless others too.

MA: Right, like Victor Frankl’s Man’s Search for Meaning. He endured unimaginable suffering, yet his book has empowered so many. I want to return to what you mentioned about entities—devils, demons, jinn, other spiritual beings—potentially producing evil in this reality. What are your thoughts?

MG: Yes, I do think that’s a reality; it’s my leading hypothesis right now. In my book An End to Upside Down Contact, I examine cases of contact with what seem to be non-human intelligences, both historically and in the modern era. A recurring theme is how people engage in rituals invoking suffering to bring such beings forth. Those involved report that the entities sometimes manifest. So historically and today, there’s evidence suggesting this is more than fiction.

Given all the suffering in the world, it seems logical to consider dark forces could be influencing events. In my book on medicine, I also discuss exorcisms, referencing Dr. Gallagher, a respected psychiatrist with Princeton and Yale credentials, who now performs exorcisms. He believes demonic entities can rarely take over a person’s psyche. I also read about a Catholic priest who, while performing exorcisms, was told by a demon that God allows them to act because if a person overcomes possession, it can lead to sanctification.

MA: Let me see if I understand this correctly: the Catholic priest who performed many exorcisms had a chance to communicate with one of these demons, and the demon said that God instructed it to possess someone to foster spiritual growth in the person who was suffering. Is that right?

MG: Yes, that's accurate. I’ll actually pull up the exact quote for you because it’s worth sharing. The priest said that in one case, a low-level demon had never possessed anyone before. God commanded it to possess this woman. The reason given was that in her struggle to overcome the demon, she would attain an extreme level of holiness. The demons themselves acknowledge that they don’t choose these actions; God permits them for our sanctification.

MA: There’s a concept called the psychosphere where certain entities thrive off human suffering, almost as if it’s nourishment. You touched on this in your book, and I wonder if you could expand on the idea that these beings might actually consume human suffering for sustenance.

MG: Yes, that aligns with things I’ve heard from people who claim they survived dark rituals involving ritual abuse, often meant to invoke demonic beings. Survivors describe how the suffering inflicted, especially on children, seems to nourish these entities. Children, due to their innocence and energy, seem to be particularly targeted. It’s like these dark beings can only survive by being parasitic. One survivor mentioned that love remains the ultimate force, one that these parasitic beings can never truly transcend. These entities survive by corrupting or feeding off innocence, distorting something pure.

MA: It's hard to wrap your head around these ideas. Hearing you, it feels like life is so much more complex—there's so much we don't understand.

MG: Yeah, that’s where I’m landing too. The more I learn, research, and write, the more I realize how much I don’t know. It’s paradoxical—the more I learn, the more the space of the unknown grows. It makes me wonder, “How much don’t I know today?” And when I do know more, that space of the unknown will only expand further. I try to hold onto that sense of not knowing and the limits of our comprehension, like comparing the understanding of 2D flatland to a multidimensional sphere.

MA: The more you learn, the more you realize how much unknown there is. The hardest part of discussing evil, though, is when it involves children. Hurting a child feels like the ultimate perversion, as if it’s a greater “win” from the perspective of evil. What are your thoughts?

MG: That's where I land as well. And I think your comments about trying to shield children from things in society resonate with me much more now than they used to, because I see a lot of what's happening culturally.

MA: One component of evil you've touched on is deception. When we think about our misconceptions of history and the idea that we may be living under a big lie about our abilities, origins, or purpose, it’s deeply unsettling. If we don’t truly know who we are or where we came from, that’s one of the greatest evils. How does this fit into your understanding of evil?

MG: This is a big part I’m still working through. Before my research, I was an atheist or agnostic, believing everything was material and life was meaningless—when we die, that's it. I didn’t believe in an afterlife, reincarnation, or the paranormal. My first two books challenged the materialist view, and I found scientific and philosophical evidence suggesting my previous beliefs were wrong. I explored spiritual philosophies in An End to Upside Down Thinking and An End to Upside Down Living. Then, during COVID, I saw people I respected in spiritual circles falling for what I saw as clear deceptions in the mainstream narrative, even labeling questioners as 'conspiracy theorists.' This divide made me question what might be missing in our spiritual philosophy, motivating my last five books to explore these deceptions and the role of spirituality.

MA: So if these layers of ignorance exist, especially within spiritual circles, what does that mean for us as individuals? Could these layers be part of a broader evolutionary process we need to transcend?

MG: There seem to be multiple layers to deception, not just a single one. Layers of ignorance have been imposed on us, often in subtle ways, and even well-meaning people can fall into them. So, what does that mean for us as individuals? If we’re subconsciously affected by these layers of ignorance, it might create a sense that something’s off. Could it impact our health or resilience, making us less able to combat darker forces? Ultimately, this may be part of an evolutionary process, pushing us to transcend these layers, develop discernment, recognize these deceptions, and, in doing so, free ourselves from them.

MA: This reminds me of The Banality of Evil and the Stanford Prison experiment, where students in guard roles quickly became tyrants. The lesson here is we can learn from mistakes and stay aware of the dangers in feeling absolutely right, viewing others as absolutely wrong, and feeling entitled to act on such beliefs.

MG: I think you're alluding to the fact that it's within all of us to enact the things we criticize in others. David Hawkins told a story that sticks with me. As he elevated in consciousness, reaching what some call enlightenment, he encountered an entity that told him, "You’ve transcended all your karma; all power over others is yours."

In that moment, he thought, "I am everything, so why would I need power over others?" and he rejected it. He calls it a "Lucifer Temptation," claiming every soul will face it. He says he was shown which advanced beings took this temptation and which rejected it. Those who took it, despite their progress, experienced a big fall and had to restart their soul’s journey.

In my second book, An End to Upside Down Living, I discussed the spiritual path’s dangers—money, sex, and power as the main traps. Depending on our weaknesses, we might fall into one. It's an interesting framework: money, sex, and power are often where deception enters based on where we are in our evolution. It's like a high level in a video game, where the enemy becomes trickier as you advance. Hawkins often said he felt an obligation to warn everyone about the Lucifer Temptation, saying, "You’re all going to face it, and at least now you know it’s coming."

MA: Certain celebrities, politicians, and influencers are people we're encouraged to admire and follow. Do you think there could be something more going on here? Could these figures be influenced or even seduced by evil?

MG: Yeah, you're pointing to a principle intrinsic to evil: inversion—turning truth upside down. My books all deal with the idea of "upside down," and at first, I didn’t realize how central this would become to my journey. Now, I often think that if someone is widely praised by the mainstream press, there’s reason to look into them further.

Conversely, if someone is demonized, my first thought is they may actually be speaking some truth. I’ll go to the primary source and look at what the person is really saying, not what’s presented by the media. And almost every time, I find there’s truth in what they’re saying. They’re likely being demonized because they’re bringing out a truth that doesn’t fit the mainstream narrative.

MA: Bringing this full circle, we’ve talked about some incredibly dark topics here—the darkest things, really. Do you ever feel overwhelming despair?

MG: There were times when studying evil brought me to despair, especially when learning the details of ritual torture intended to summon demonic forces. It got so intense that I had to stop because the marginal value of further research wasn’t worth the toll.

I believe there’s a fine line in understanding evil—knowing enough to navigate it without getting sucked into its despair, which can prevent you from being a force for good. After reaching a “peak darkness” in my research, I’ve become somewhat desensitized, but I feel more hopeful now. I see truths coming out at a faster rate, and even the media is entertaining topics once dismissed as “conspiracy,” which I view as progress.

I think questioning everything is part of evolution. On a personal level, I still notice many people, especially those from my prior life in the mainstream, who don’t seem open to alternative narratives. Part of me feels despair about the potential suffering this may bring, but I understand it’s not my place to dictate others’ paths. I also see a growing number of people questioning things, and that gives me hope.

MA: When it comes to individuals who have committed horrific, evil acts, do you think there’s a possibility for redemption?

MG: It's a great question, and a metaphysical one about the nature of reality. If reality is ultimately benevolent at its core, then I would guess there has to be redemption at some level. It might take an unimaginable amount of time, but often, those who perpetrate intense evils are horribly traumatized themselves—this seems to fuel the cycle.

So in a way, we can sometimes glimpse the innocence in the perpetrator, though it’s very hard. This reminds me of a story I shared in my second book, An End to Upside Down Living, in a chapter about forgiveness. It’s about a woman named Asyra, who was being attacked by a man. During the attack, she had an otherworldly experience, feeling the deep pain that had led him to violence. He, too, became aware of his actions, stopped, and took her to the hospital, ultimately saving her life. She forgave him, not because she liked him, but because she could feel his suffering. For me, that’s a powerful analogy, one that applies in many places.

MA: The other part of evil that you touched upon is the idea of forgiveness. Are there some things that are unforgivable when it comes to evil?

MG: It depends on how we define forgiveness. From Asyra’s perspective, where she “forgave” her attacker, it meant she understood where he was coming from, but that didn’t mean she wanted to engage with him again—she was still very angry.

So if we take the most lenient definition of forgiveness—understanding without holding onto anger—it’s about not letting resentment weigh us down. The danger of not forgiving is that it’s like digging two graves: wanting revenge harms us too, as we carry that anger negatively. There’s a balance—perhaps a healthy distaste, but with understanding. I haven’t fully figured out where that line is, but forgiveness can be very useful.

MA: You’ve talked about the idea that trauma breeds more trauma. What's your best advice for breaking this cycle of generational trauma?

MG: It’s a deep question, and there are so many modalities. Recently, I’ve been looking into Family Constellations again, an idea suggesting that generational trauma is held energetically within us. We might carry trauma that isn’t directly ours but something an ancestor dealt with.

This approach suggests we suffer out of love for our ancestors, almost as if we’re showing love by sharing their suffering. Another approach is becoming aware of the events in our own lives. Meditation, psychotherapy—many methods can help. But the first step is acknowledging trauma in our own life. If we did this collectively, handling the darkness within us, it could be a solution to help the world. However, taking that step can be difficult because it often involves reliving pain and working through it instead of suppressing it, which is what many have to do just to get by.

MA: What are your plans for the future, and how can people follow your work and get to know you better?

MG: My website, MarkGober.com, is a good place to start if people want to learn more. I've written seven books, available in hard copy, Kindle, and Audible, which I narrate myself. I also have a podcast series from 2019—eight bingeable episodes in narrative format on the nature of consciousness, exploring whether it comes from the brain, scientific evidence for the afterlife, and psychic phenomena. Many start with the podcast. It’s on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and other platforms.

MA: What you have to say is so insightful and so intriguing. Thanks again. I really appreciate your time today.